tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30932360.post3544021519547936345..comments2023-10-31T08:48:55.890-04:00Comments on Daf Yomi DafYomi Daf-Yomi: Daf Yomi - Taanis 3 - GESHEM OR GASHEM? THAT IS THE QUESTIONAvromihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13593992238707872967noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30932360.post-88800772914115793092012-10-18T08:57:53.513-04:002012-10-18T08:57:53.513-04:00Here is a link to an excellent recent article on t...Here is a link to an excellent recent article on this topic that goes through the who's and why's of this topic quite extensively -<br />http://ohr.edu/this_week/insights_into_halacha/4903<br />[dont' forget to read the footnotes!]<br />also i would not rely lmaaseh on the mechalkel chaim's claims that rav moshe retracted. if he would have, it would be listed in more reliable sources. many others including rav elyashiv said gashem as well. I think he is confusing it with rav shlomo zalman auerbach who is quoted in halichos shlomo as retracting after reading birchos chaim (by the same author - r chaim krauss).<br />On that topic - Here is a link to a teshuva by Rabbi Y.Y. Fischer zt"l of the Eidah Charedis, who writes that he refused to give the Birchos Chaim his haskama, as it was misleading and he found sources for Gashem from Siddurim printed 5 years before Satanov (the maskil he cites as the mekor for Gashem) was born. Worthwhile to see - Shu"t Even Yisrael vol. 8, 9 - http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=673&pgnum=18.chaim mordchenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30932360.post-31301175927513116912010-01-26T08:06:14.352-05:002010-01-26T08:06:14.352-05:00Can anyone actually tell me who this SEFER MECHALK...Can anyone actually tell me who this SEFER MECHALKEL CHAYIM is written by and if it has any credibility at all!<br /><br />How many times have we heard, when people don't like a psak, a fabricated story about the posek retracting even though it appears nowhere in his authentic writings!<br /><br />Truth is, I'm not even sure if it's authentic that Rav Yaakov held to say HagEshem.<br /><br />Bottom line is, it's been minhag Ahskenaz and more specifically minhag Lita (The undisputed centre of Torah Jewry in the last few hundred years (not that there wasn't torah elsewhere- of course there was!))to say HagOshem, for centuries now. And tell me all you wiseguys who know so much - there weren't any beki'im in diduk, tefillah and in Torah in general there, in the past few hundred years?!. Of course they where! And, they didn't see the need to say gEshem!<br /><br />The Sefardim have their own (different) way to Ahskenazim, always have had since we all went into this deep, dark golus. You can ask them for their reasoning. But it doesn't change the Minhag Ashkenaz. Chassidim, etc. just adopted from the Sefardim, so nothing to answer for there! <br /><br />In truth, this whole discussion is ridiculous and is actually what I like to call psueo-Torah - people trying to make out like they are such gedolim by debating nonsense.<br /><br />This was the minhag of REAL gedolim of previous generations, and it is "Meimayhem SheShosinu" ( THEIR Waters which we drink) - well at least we should be drinking their waters, which unfortunately is not happening so much anymore. Let us accept and practice their minhag orrectly.<br /><br />BTW, could those who so quickly make reference to "very old siddurim" having HagEshem, provide tangible proof of such (authentic manuscrips with nekudos, not reprints that have been edited by publishers). I'll bet that if it were looked into properly, no such proof exists, and the ones that do, are dubious subjects of heavy debate.Binyaminnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30932360.post-43080374951752646302007-01-15T16:58:00.000-05:002007-01-15T16:58:00.000-05:00Many years ago I saw a kuntres {titled Maishev HaR...Many years ago I saw a kuntres {titled Maishev HaRuach} and he quoted from many gedolim including R. Moshe, Rav Elyashiv, and the Brisker Rov [R. Velvel] that it is correct to use a kometz. He also brought many proofs. for many years the siddurim wrote it with a kometz. Then everyone wanted to prove that he was smarter than the other and it was changed to a patech.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30932360.post-62183644175714456762007-01-11T15:31:00.000-05:002007-01-11T15:31:00.000-05:00Ben: woops, didn't see the "read more" link to Iyu...Ben: woops, didn't see the "read more" link to Iyun Hadaf - but what about the Tur who seems to indicate that Mashiv Haruach is its own phrase?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30932360.post-23246168618062258982007-01-11T12:18:00.000-05:002007-01-11T12:18:00.000-05:00The Ritva on 2a writes that the reason Chazal inst...The Ritva on 2a writes that the reason Chazal instituted that we recite geshamim in the Bracha of techias hameisim is because rain is akin to techias hameisim in two ways. First, one plants a seed in the ground and then it sprouts forth a sapling with many layers, and this is similar to techias hameisim regarding which the Gemara in Kesubos states that the tzaddikim will arise wearing clothing. Second, when there is no rain and people’s livelihoods are affected, they feel like they are dead, and HaShem resurrects them by sending rain. Based on this exposition, we can suggest that one should say hageshem with a kamatz, because we are saying that mechayeh meisim atah rav lehoshiya, and akin to techias hameisim is the fact that You are mashiv haruach umorid hageshem. Yet, there is room to say that one should recite the word hageshem with a patach, because sustenance is like techias hameisim, and we say that you are mashiv haruach umorid hageshem, and You are mechalkel chaim bechesed. (This is like was mentioned in Kollel Iyun Hadaf from the Tur). <br /><br />Dror, regarding your question about Rav Moshe zt”l, the Kollel wrote explicitly “According to SEFER MECHALKEL CHAYIM, Rav Moshe Feinstein himself retracted his opinion.”Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30932360.post-81214044409187693082007-01-11T10:49:00.000-05:002007-01-11T10:49:00.000-05:00From what I recall the Tur saying (and I don't hav...From what I recall the Tur saying (and I don't have the sefer in front of me now,) it's <i>mashma punkt farkert</i> (just the opposite seems true.)<br />I think the Tur says that if one forgot to say "mashiv haruach", but remembered still during this brocha of gvuros, he should recite it right when he remembers, and doesn't need to go back to "mechalkel chayim b'chesed", rather he should just continue where he was before.<br />It's therefore mashma (appears) that "mashiv haruach" is a statement <i>bifnei atzma</i> (an independent statement) - which means it should require the esnachta, and thefore be "hag<b>o</b>shem". I believe that the Igros Moshe zt"l paskens it should be hag<b>o</b>shem as well.<br />Now, I once saw R. Yaakov Kaminetzky zt"l who says that it should be "hag<b>e</b>shem", based on a few svoros (logical reasoning). He then bevorns (keeps safe from) the kasha (question) above of "morid hat<b>o</b>l" vs. "morid hat<b>a</b>l", and says that he saw in an old siddur "morid hat<b>a</b>l". So my question is: Do we follow R. Moshe zt"l, who was the posek hador, and R. Yaakov admitted that R. Moshe was greater than him, or do we go like R. Yaakov tz"l who l'ch'oyra (apparantly) was the godol in dikduk?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30932360.post-57048252697394709092007-01-11T08:58:00.000-05:002007-01-11T08:58:00.000-05:00Even to those who hold that the reason for the Seg...Even to those who hold that the reason for the Segol is because it is the middle of the sentence, it would appear that when we say "tefilas Geshem", there, the sentence ends at Hagashem, therefore, shouldn't everyone agree that you should say Hagashem?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30932360.post-50728124873874081912007-01-11T05:57:00.000-05:002007-01-11T05:57:00.000-05:00regarding point (d), see this post
http://parsha....regarding point (d), see this post<br /><br />http://parsha.blogspot.com/2003/10/pseudo-pausal.htmljoshwaxmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05149022516101476797noreply@blogger.com