Showing posts with label mitzvos lav lehonos nitnu. Show all posts
Showing posts with label mitzvos lav lehonos nitnu. Show all posts

Sunday, January 06, 2008

Incidental Benefit

Abaye explains the Gemora (Nedarim 16b) as follows: In the case of a vow, one says, “The pleasure of the sukkah should be forbidden upon me.” (Since the vow is upon the object, not the person, it is effective.) However, in the case of an oath, one says, “I swear that I will not derive any pleasure from the sukkah.” (Since the oath is upon the person and the mitzvah is upon the person, they are contradicting each other and the oath cannot take effect.)

Rava asks on Abaye’s language: Were mitzvos given to derive benefit from them? (He should still be able to sit in the sukkah?)

Rather, Rava explains: In the case of a vow, one says, “The sitting in the sukkah should be forbidden upon me.” However, in the case of an oath, one says, “I swear that I will not sit in the sukkah.”

The Reshash asks on Rava’s question: Although the mitzvos were not given for the purpose of deriving benefit from them, it still should be forbidden to sit in the sukkah in this situation? This is because he is enjoying the incidental pleasure of the shade!

He answers that if it is shade that the person desires, he could stay inside the house. The reason he chose to sit in a sukkah is solely because of the mitzvah. It is therefore not regarded as if he is befitting from the shade of the sukkah.

The Machaneh Efraim is not satisfied with this answer. He asks that the bottom line is that he is not dwelling in his house; he is inside the sukkah and enjoying its shade! Why should this be permitted?

The Oneg Yom Tov answers: We are only concerned with the physical pleasure when the benefit is purely incidental and not related to the mitzvah. However, the mitzvah of sukkah is different. The Torah commands us to dwell in the sukkah in the same manner that one would live in his house. The enjoyment of sitting in a sukkah is not regarded as an incidental benefit; this is the fulfillment of the mitzvah. And since mitzvos were not given for the purpose of deriving pleasure from them, the (direct) benefit that one receives as he is fulfilling the mitzvah is not regarded as a benefit, and is therefore permitted.

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Monday, May 07, 2007

Daf Yomi - Yevamos 4 - SHATNEZ BY TZITZIS

It is written [Devarim 22: 11 - 12]: You shall not wear shatnez (wool and linen together). You shall make for yourself tzitzis (twined fringes). The fact that the Torah juxtaposes these two verses, teach us that one can make tzitzis even in a case of shatnez. This indicates that a positive commandment can override a prohibition.

The commentators ask from the Gemora below (4b): The Gemora states: If the Torah would have only written the passuk in Vayikra: and a garment that is a mixture of shatnez shall not come upon you, we would have thought that placing shatnez upon oneself in any manner would be forbidden, and even garment sellers would be prohibited from wearing shatnez (they merely drape themselves with the garments in order to exhibit them without a specific intent for the warmth which these garments offer). This is why the Torah wrote in Devarim: You shall not wear shatnez, teaching us that it is forbidden to wear shatnez only by a wearing that offers physical pleasure (and since a garment seller does not wear the garment for that intent, it will be permitted for him).

Accordingly, what is the proof from the fact that one can wear a garment of tzitzis which contains shatnez that a positive commandment can override a prohibition; perhaps one can don a garment of tzitzis that contains shatnez because the prohibition is only when wearing a garment that provides physical pleasure and his intention is for that purpose? One who is wearing tzitzis should not be regarded as deriving pleasure because of the dictum of “mitzvot lav le’henos nitnu” – mitzvos were not given for the purpose of pleasure.

According to the Ran, this is not a question, for he says that the principle of “mitzvot lav le’henos nitnu” is not applicable when there is a physical pleasure; here, the garment is providing physical warmth and therefore, it should be prohibited if not for the fact that the positive commandment can override the prohibition.

However, the Rashba disagrees and maintains that we don’t consider any benefit that one receives during the fulfillment of a mitzvah; if so, let us say that one is permitted to wear tzitzis containing shatnez because he is not deriving any pleasure?

Reb Shmuel Rozovsky answers: The prohibition of shatnez is merely not to wear a garment containing shatnez; there is a condition that it is only regarded as wearing if he is deriving pleasure.

One who is wearing a garment of tzitzis is wearing the garment and deriving pleasure. While it’s true that the performance of the mitzvah negates the benefit he is receiving, he is still wearing the garment and it should be prohibited, if not for the fact that the positive commandment overrides this prohibition.

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Tuesday, January 02, 2007

Daf Yomi - Rosh Hashana 28 - Deriving Benefit from a Mitzva by Reb Jay

If one makes a vow not to derive benefit from his friend and his friend blew shofar for him, he has fulfilled his obligation. This is because of Rava’s statement in the Gemora that the mitzvos were not given for the sake of deriving benefit, rather they were given as a yoke upon one’s neck.

The Ran cites an interesting Baal Hameor who writes that this is so only if the mitzva was a Biblical mitzva; however, for a Rabbinical mitzva, for example a person who made a vow not to derive benefit from his friend and his friend blew trumpets on a fast day (which is only a Rabbinical mitzva), he must leave the shul, as we do not say that the mitzvos were not given for the sake of deriving benefit by a Rabbinical mitzva.

The Ran questions that if so, how can the person stay past the first nine blasts on Rosh Hashanah, as the remaining blasts are not Biblical but Rabbinic? Perhaps we can answer that evn though the remaining blasts are Rabbinic but they are considered to be part of the Biblical mitzva.

What is the difference between a Biblical mitzva for which we say that the mitzvos were not given for the sake of deriving benefit and a Rabbinical mitzva that we do not? How are we to understand this Baal Hameor?

Mitzvos were not given for the sake of deriving benefit means that the mitzvos are given as yoke upon one’s neck. Perhaps we can say that a Biblical mitzva is qualitatively stronger than a Rabbinical mitzva (for example when it comes to a doubt on a Biblical mitzva, we rule stringently and yet we are lenient on a Rabbinical mitzva). Therefore, the strength of the commandment that is Biblical negates any benefit from the mitzva. A Rabbinical mitzva, however, is not as strong and cannot negate the benefit from the mitzva.

The Keser Dovid elaborates and writes that while a Biblical mitzva has one step (from Hashem to us directly), a Rabbinical mitzva has two steps, from Hashem to us via the mitzva of “lo sassur” - do not sway from the teachings of the Sages.

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Daf Yomi - Rosh Hashana 28 - Mitzvos not Given for Pleasure

Tekiyas shofar and mitzvot lav le'henot nitnu by Reb Chaim B.

Here is the link for Divrei Chaim's Torah. Look there for other lomdishe posts.

The gemara (R”H 28) tells us that it is permitted to use a shofar from a korban olah or shelamim because “mitzvot lav le’henot nitnu” – fulfilling a mitzvah is not considered a form of hana’ah. The Ba’al haMaor writes that this halacha applies only to the tekiyos of Rosh haShana which are mitzvos d’oraysa, but tekiyas chatzotzros which was done on a ta’anis would be prohibited. (It is unclear from the Ba’al HaMaor whether all tekiyos of R”H are permitted, or only the shiur needed to fulfill the mitzvah d’oraysa). At first glance this opinion of the Ba’al HaMaor is very difficult to understand. Firstly, tekiyas chatzotzros is also a mitzvah d’oraysa and not derabbanan – what distinction is the Ba’al haMaor trying to draw? Secondly, if the hana’ah one gets from having fulfilled a significant mitzvah d’oraysa which one would otherwise have to find some other way of accomplishing is not considered enough hana’ah to prohibit using the shofar, doesn’t it stand to reason that the hana’ah received from being able to fulfill a more minor mitzvah derabbanan is not considered significant enough hana’ah to create an issur? IOW, if mitzvos lav le’henot is a function of the shiur (quantity) of hana’ah received, then one would expect to draw the opposite conclusion as the Ba’al haMaor? There must be some other model of understanding mitzvot lav le'henot nitnu which the Ba'al haMaor subscribes to - to be continued bl"n...
posted by Chaim B. at 11:09 AM

10 Comments:
Avromi said...
Perhaps as a thought one could make a distinction between shofar which is a mitzva to be shomea (acc to some rishonim) and therefore the pleasure of the listening does not bother us for one is fulfilling his mitzva with that, however by chatzotzros which the rambam states is a mitzva to blow them on a taanis similar to tefillah, there we are concerned on the benefit he would be getting from listening without getting a mitzva with that.

4:27 PM
Anonymous said...
Is the BH"M referring to the shofar that is blown next to the chatzotzros on a ta'anis, or the chatzotzros themselves?

4:43 PM
Arthur Digby Sellers said...
What is the heter to use this shofar (it's assur b'hana'a)?

The answer is, I'm fulfilling a bona-fide mitzva, and that use is not classified as hana'a. If, however, I'm just being mikayeim an auxilliary mitzva (like the shofar on the sides of the chatzotzros), that is not enough of a "matir" to allow me the use of the chefta shel issur. The product of the use of that cheftza is still deemed hana'a.

4:50 PM
Avromi said...
Anon: I didnt see it, but if its from an olah or shelomim, id assume he means a shofar - chatzotzros were made of silver.

A.D.S. I hear what you are saying, but if the mitzva is to blow, then what benefit is he getting? Are you saying the B"hM maintains that the hannah of fulfilling the mitzva is ossur here even though mitzvos lav lehonos, but thats only by a real mitzva?

5:15 PM
Chaim B. said...
Avromi, your original sevara (pleasure of listening) is said by the Sha'ar haMelech (though I may be misremembering the source). It seems to reduce the Ba'al haMaor's chiluk to ancillary pleasure vs. no ancillary pleasure, not d'oraysa vs. derabbanan. The Shu't HaRashba raises the issue of giving a lulav to a friend one is mudar hana'ah from on Yom Tov sheni - no ancillary pleasure from picking up a lulav, but the mitzvah is only derabbanan. Rashba says mutar, which fits your hesber nicely.

5:24 PM
Arthur Digby Sellers said...
The mitzva of tekias shofar by a taanis does not constitute a "matir". Use of this shofar is prohibited. You need a good reason to remove that prohibition. A quasi-mitzva is not enough of a reason.

5:25 PM
Avromi said...
mitzvos lav lehonos nitnu

5:35 PM
Avromi said...
For a nice kasha from oneg yom tov and discussion, you can see here.
http://dafnotes.blogspot.com/2006/09/daf-yomi-sukkah-9-sukkah-in-rain.html

5:38 PM
Chaim B. said...
Oh, you're Avromi from daf notes! I added a link to you on the side.

10:00 PM
Avromi said...
thanks and im waiting for part 2 of your shtikel

10:25 PM

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