Monday, June 18, 2007

NOT KOSHER ENOUGH - Yevamos 45 - Daf Yomi

The Gemora states that Rav also ruled that the child is fit. There was once a man who came to Rav and asked him: “What is the law regarding a Canaanite slave or an idolater who cohabits with a Jewess?” Rav said: “The child is fit.” The man said: “If so, give me your daughter to marry (the man was from such a union).” Rav replied: “I will not give her to you.” Shimi bar Chiya said to Rav: “People say, ‘A camel in Medea dances in a kav (a camel can dance with its four legs in a small jar – an saying which means that people invent far-fetched stories from far away places that cannot be substantiated).’ We have the kav and the camel, and this is Medea, but it is not dancing (if you ruled that it is permitted, give your daughter to him in marriage).” Rav answered: “Even if he were as great as Yehoshua son of Nun, I would not give my daughter to him.” Shimi told Rav: “If he were as great as Yehoshua son of Nun, even if you will not give him your daughter, others would certainly give him theirs; however, regarding this man, if you do not give him your daughter, nobody will.” Rav refused to change his mind and the man did not leave Rav. Rav gazed upon the man, and he died.

The Gemora states: Rav Masneh also ruled that the child is fit. Rav Yehudah also permitted the child. A man from such a union came to Rav Yehudah and Rav Yehudah said to him: “Go to a place where they will not recognize you, and you can marry a Jewess, or stay here and marry someone of your same type. Rava told the man the same advice.

*** Could Rav have said, “Even if he is as great as Moshe Rabbeinu”?

*** Why didn’t Rav want to give his daughter to him if he himself ruled that the man was qualified?

*** Why did Rav have him killed?

*** How could they give advice to go to another city where they will not be recognized? Shouldn’t this be gneivas da’as?

*** Does lifnei iver apply by a chumrah?

*** Can you sell or give someone something that is kosher, but not according to all opinions?

8 comments:

Poseik said...

Quote: *** Can you sell or give someone something that is kosher, but not according to all opinions?

Chasam Sofer Orach Chaim 65 rules that since there are shitos that forbid that particular item, you must notify the buyer, and if you don't, it can be considered an invalid sale.

Machashava said...

*** Could Rav have said, “Even if he is as great as Moshe Rabbeinu”?

Can one be as great as Moshe; per haps that is an impossibility?

Rabbi Ally Ehrman said...

See sdei chemed vol. 2 P. 140

Avromi said...

Sdei Chemed: Two Chachamim, one is matir and one says it's assur; can the one that's matir give the food to the one that holds assur; is it in the geder of lifnei iver?He brings from Reah that it depends if it's recognizable; if it is, then it's mutar because he can see what it is, ptherwise, it's assur. Peri Chadash disagrees; There is no lifnei iver on something that you hold is mutar.

coulb be proof from Gemora before that Beis Shamai and Beis Hillel; they informed them of which was assur or tamei according to them.

If someone knows its mutar, but is noheig issur on himself and that is b'geder shavyah anafshei chaticha d'issurra which could be d'oraysa or perhaps d'rabbanan, everyone would hold that you can't give it to him and it would be lifnei iver.

Rabbi doniel Neustadt said...

*** Could Rav have said, “Even if he is as great as Moshe Rabbeinu”?

MR was pirish min haishah, so he doesn’t mention him as a candidate for marriage

*** Why didn’t Rav want to give his daughter to him if he himself ruled that the man was qualified?

Chumrah – he is still a pogum

*** Why did Rav have him killed?

Because by the man not leaving he continued to pressure Rav and was being mevazeh him

*** How could they give advice to go to another city where they will not be recognized? Shouldn’t this be gneivas da’as?

No, because since its mutar there is no geneivas daas

*** Does lifnei iver apply by a chumrah?

No way

*** Can you sell or give someone something that is kosher, but not according to all opinions?

Question: May one who does not use the city eiruv (for carrying on Shabbos) ask another person who does use the eiruv to carry on his behalf?

Discussion: The answer will depend upon the reason why the first person does not make use of the eiruv. If, in his opinion or in the opinion of his halachic authority, the eiruv is not valid and may not be used at all, then he may not ask another person to carry for him either. This is because he is asking the other person to do something which is not halachically permitted. But if, in his opinion or in the opinion of his halachic authority, the eiruv is valid, yet he chooses to be stringent and not use the eiruv, it is permitted to ask another person to carry on his behalf. In this case, the other person is not performing a halachically forbidden action.

The same principle applies in other areas of halachah. For example, contemporary poskim disagree whether or not it is permitted to lift off the tab of a soda or beer can on Shabbos.[1] One who does not remove tabs because he adheres to the halachic opinion that forbids it, may not ask another person to open a can on his behalf. If, however, it is only a personal stringency but in theory he agrees that it is permissible, he is allowed to ask another person who opens soda cans to open one for him as well.

May a person who keeps Shabbos until seventy-two minutes past sunset ask another person who waits less than seventy-two minutes to perform a forbidden Shabbos Labor for him before seventy-two minutes are up? Again, it will depend on the previously mentioned principle. If waiting seventy-two minutes is based on a strict halachic interpretation, then asking someone else to do a forbidden Labor is like asking him to violate Shabbos. If, however, keeping seventy-two minutes is a personal stringency or a family custom, it is permitted to ask another person who does not have this stringency or custom to “transgress” Shabbos on one’s behalf.[2]





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[1] See The Weekly Halachah Discussion on Parashas Beshalach.

[2] Entire discussion based on the following sources: Darchei Teshuvah, Y.D. 119:58 quoting Kesav Sofer; Igros Moshe, O.C. 1:186; Harav S.Z. Auerbach (Peninei ha-Ma’or, letter 3-8 and letter 22-1; Shulchan Shelomo 318:57 and footnote); Shevet ha-Levi 1:53.

Rabbi Dovid Botton said...

1. I will give you a hint, look at the midrashim regarding the
history and birth of Yehoshuah Bin Nun and keep in mind that the
tribe of Levi where never slaves either and it should come together
for you.

2. Qualified does not imply a match. There is a curse on any Cohen
that marries his daughter to a non-talmid chacham who is not a Cohen
as an example.

3. Rav did not kill him, he gazed upon him and the man died.

4. Lifney Iver applies in a case where you know the other person
keeps that chumrah

5. Yes, provided you are not doing so in a fashion that would
constitute "lifney iver". If I have a store (that itself is not under
some hechsher like a gas station) carrying triangle-K products that
are acceptable in some communities and not in others and some one
chooses on their own to purchase the product seeing very clearly the
triangle-K, if I hold it is acceptable I have not sold something non-
kosher and I have not blinded the other party to the products
certification either. [this is not meant to endorse or demean the
Triangle-K in any way, just a well known example]

David Botton

Rav Chaim said...

Quote "*** Could Rav have said, “Even if he is as great as Moshe Rabbeinu”?"

Apparently no. See YD 242:36 and see Taz there.

Quote "*** Why didn’t Rav want to give his daughter to him if he himself ruled that the man was qualified?"

Would you give your daughter over to anyone that son is Kosher? It's Mashma that he wasn't such a catch in the first place.

Quote "*** Why did Rav have him killed?"

I'm not sure that it was intentional. We see that wherever the Rabanan gaze there eyes, whether on purpose or not, caused either death or poverty.

Quote "*** How could they give advice to go to another city where they will not be recognized? Shouldn’t this be gneivas da’as?"

Since it's not something that should make a difference, though people might be Makpid when hearing it, but it's really of no consequence. It's like in all Shiduchim, you don't need to put every skeleton that you might have on the table.

Anonymous said...

Why did he say Yeshoua Ben Nun?
I thought of it and then it was confirmed by the Kovetz Yeshoua Ben nun married Rochov who was A Zona so you cant question my Yichus