Wednesday, November 08, 2006

Daf Yomi - Beitza 13 - Taste of Talsan Beans by Reb Dave

13a – Rashi says we do not separate maser on the straw of the talsan beans, because “ the taste of the fruit and the branch is the same” ( taa’am eitzoh upiryah shavin). It seem to me that this phrase is just an expression of something having no taste, not that literally the fruit tastes like the bark, or that the bark tastes like the fruit. Proof of this can be seen from the fact that the Gemara applies this dictum to peppers, and yet we know from Yoma that peppers are not even considered food. Again, it is just another way of saying the peppers have no taste. KN’’L.

5 comments:

rabbi yosef dov karr said...

what about an esrog where we do mean it literally?

David said...

How do you know we mean it literally there? Adarabah, hee hanosenses. ( I actually thought about bringing this as a proof, but figured I already brought one). The esrog tree manifestly does not have the same taste as the esrog itself - try taking a bite out of a tree, if Mr. Shwartzman let's you get close enough, and see what I mean. HOWEVER, the fruit itself is tasteless. ( Although it is possible to make jam and shnapps out of it, if you throw in enough sweeteners.)So, if anything the reference to the esrog is "tanya de'misayeiah"

Avromi said...

taken from wineonline

The third opinion, that of Rabbi Abba
from Acco, expounds the Eitz Hada'as was an esrog
tree, based upon Chava's assertion that the tree itself
was good. Chazal relate that only an esrog tree
produces fruit and bark with similar taste.
Parenthetically, the Mateh Ephraim (Eleph
Hamagen 660:6) explains a beautiful Hoshana Rabbah
custom pertaining to pregnant women. After the mitzvah
of the four species is completed on Hoshanna Rabba,
the esrog is no longer necessary. Pregnant women
would bite off the esrog's pitem, thereby demonstrating
that this time they are "eating" from the esrog tree only
after the esrog is permissible. By indicating their
disapproval of Chava's original transgression, in this
merit, the women are asking HaShem to grant them an
easy delivery!

David said...

Well, bemichilis kvod toroso of Rabbi Wein ( who is truly one an inspiration to me and many others) the esrog is not the only place we find referecne to " taam eitzo upiryo shavvin".

This is from the aish.com website (I edited out the spaces and non relevant material:
-----------
Another Question: Do the wood and the etrog fruit actually taste the same? Not really! What does Rashi mean when he says that they do?

Regarding the second, factual, question, Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch explains that the chemical essences that give the etrog its special taste are also contained within its wood. Another view is that the very young, and still soft, green branches of the etrog tree do have a similar taste to that of the etrog fruit.
------------
This almost seems like the great debate of the ancient philosophers, over how many teeth a horse has. None of them actually bothered to check the horse's mouth, of course. Here too, let's taste the tree and the esrog, and see if they taste the same. I don't beleive they do, and that's why you see the difficulty raised on Aish's website, and why I suggested it means the fruit is tasteless.

talktachlis said...

In this Gemara, the p'shat is clearly that the Fenugreek, or Tallsa Beans as some call it, shares the same taste as its seeds, and not that it is devoid of any taste whatsoever.

The Fenugreek seeds were used to season foods. Thus, its stalk clearly had flavor - the same exact flavor as the seeds.

Thus, the chiddush of the Gemara is that although the stalks have flavor, they are exempt from terumah. The way to prevent them from being subject to terumah, states the Gemara, is if one breaks it aprt so that the stalks are separate from the seeds and then take terumah from the seeds.

The reason for the leniency by Chazal in the is case is because of the fact that requirement to take terumah on kitniyos is on Miderabonon in the first place; hence the leniency.

It hink the p'shat is that by other species of kitniyos the stalks - which comprise the majority of the species - have no taste. Therefore, although the Fenugreek stalks do have taste - a taste identical to its seeds, nevertheless, Chazal were lenient and treated the Fenugreek stalks as they treat all other stalks of legumes, not requiring terumah to be taken from them.

Tachlis