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Daily Daf Dose
Rav Yisroel Gordon from the Kollel in Palo Alto raised an interesting question on their daf blog here.
The gemara asks, acc. to opinion that nedarim and nedavos can't be brought on yom tov, what would be if one violated shechita, would you sprinkle the blood. The gemara says that if the meat is around all agree that you can sprinkle the blood (and violate a shevus of zrika - see pesachim 65b) in order to eat the meat on yom tov (ochel nefesh pushes off the shevus of zrika).
The gemara implies "avar vishachat" that he intentionally violated the prohibition to shecht the korban, so the meat should be assur m'drabonon to eat just like one who cooks on shabbos b'mazid the food is assur (beitza 17b!). If it is assur to eat the meat there is no longer a heter to do the zrika (acc. to rava)? He suggested that since there is a mitzvah to eat kodshim, we can apply mitzvos la'av l'eihanos nitnu to allow eating the korban. To me it seems that this would only work with the chiddush of r' moshe (o.c. 1:126:3) that we are magdir even the issur d'rabonon of ma'aseh shabbos as an issur hana'a so that the heter of mitzvos la'av leihanos nitnu would apply. If it would be a regular kenas derabonon not to eat it, there wouldn't be a heter of mitzvos la'av leihanos nitnu.
I couldn't find anyone else (i.e. tzlach, pnei yehoshua, sfas emes) address the question.
The question intrigued me and I found it in a sefer and commented there. Here are some of the comments.
Avromi said...
reb shlomo zalman in minchas shlomo says that if it would be bemeizid like the loshon is mashma, it should be ussur because of maaseh yom tov.
he does quote a kehilas yaakov which im not sure what he says yet. i cant find it.
5:49 PM
Avi Lebowitz said...
i looked for the teshuva you mentioned from minchas shlomo. i was only able to find in chelek 1 teshuva 10 footnote 7 a discussion about why the meat is not muktzah. this issue is already discussed at length by the tzlach and mitzpah eisan (printed in the back of the gemara). but i still have not found the question about the meat being assur bec. of ma'aseh shabbos.
6:47 PM
Avromi said...
he has a sefer on beitza - its not in the teshuvos one
7:24 PM
Yossie Schonkopf said...
maybe: you cannot make hekdesh asur an isur cheftza because it doen't belong to you. a person may not make asur what is not his.
7:32 PM
Yossie Schonkopf said...
also, there is no shvus in the mikdash, maybe this included.
7:35 PM
Avromi said...
the pnei yehoshua asks on the gem that there shouldnt be shvus bmikdash bichlal so why should the zrika be assur? shita says that here is different since he did an aveira.
7:39 PM
We also discussed previously as to what the prohibition would be for performing a zerikah on Shabbos here.
Daf Yomi - Yoma 46 - Zerika on Shabbos - What's Wrong?
It is clear from Rashi and Tosfos on this daf that a possuk is necessary to teach us that shechita and zerika (the sprinkling of the blood) is permitted on Shabbos. Reshash is bothered as to what the issur would be to perform zerikas hadam on Shabbos? The Rashba in Menochos (21) seems to indicate that the predicament would be that the azarah is considered reshus harabim. The Mishna in Tamid states that if a sheretz was found in the azarah on Shabbos, they would turn a pot over it. The Rosh comments that the difficulty was that the sheretz is deemed to be muktza. He quotes others who explain that it would be forbidden to transport it on Shabbos for the azarah is reshus harabim. He disagrees vehemently with this, for the Gemora Pesachim states that it is regarded as reshus harabim only in respect to the halachos of tumah, but not for Shabbos. It would seem obvious that the azarah is not reckoned as a reshus harabim for it is surrounded by walls and the doors are locked at night?
Why would zerikas hadam be considered a violation of Shabbos, that we need a passuk to say that it is acceptable?
Shlomo said...
Shalom,
Just noticed on the Midrashiya that they bring a Tiferes Yisroel that it might have to do with צביעה or they say their own logic (which im not quite sure what it is) that it might be זורה - winnowing, but it looks from them it is some type of separating the blodd on two sides of the mizbeach - not sure though.
The gemara asks, acc. to opinion that nedarim and nedavos can't be brought on yom tov, what would be if one violated shechita, would you sprinkle the blood. The gemara says that if the meat is around all agree that you can sprinkle the blood (and violate a shevus of zrika - see pesachim 65b) in order to eat the meat on yom tov (ochel nefesh pushes off the shevus of zrika).
The gemara implies "avar vishachat" that he intentionally violated the prohibition to shecht the korban, so the meat should be assur m'drabonon to eat just like one who cooks on shabbos b'mazid the food is assur (beitza 17b!). If it is assur to eat the meat there is no longer a heter to do the zrika (acc. to rava)? He suggested that since there is a mitzvah to eat kodshim, we can apply mitzvos la'av l'eihanos nitnu to allow eating the korban. To me it seems that this would only work with the chiddush of r' moshe (o.c. 1:126:3) that we are magdir even the issur d'rabonon of ma'aseh shabbos as an issur hana'a so that the heter of mitzvos la'av leihanos nitnu would apply. If it would be a regular kenas derabonon not to eat it, there wouldn't be a heter of mitzvos la'av leihanos nitnu.
I couldn't find anyone else (i.e. tzlach, pnei yehoshua, sfas emes) address the question.
The question intrigued me and I found it in a sefer and commented there. Here are some of the comments.
Avromi said...
reb shlomo zalman in minchas shlomo says that if it would be bemeizid like the loshon is mashma, it should be ussur because of maaseh yom tov.
he does quote a kehilas yaakov which im not sure what he says yet. i cant find it.
5:49 PM
Avi Lebowitz said...
i looked for the teshuva you mentioned from minchas shlomo. i was only able to find in chelek 1 teshuva 10 footnote 7 a discussion about why the meat is not muktzah. this issue is already discussed at length by the tzlach and mitzpah eisan (printed in the back of the gemara). but i still have not found the question about the meat being assur bec. of ma'aseh shabbos.
6:47 PM
Avromi said...
he has a sefer on beitza - its not in the teshuvos one
7:24 PM
Yossie Schonkopf said...
maybe: you cannot make hekdesh asur an isur cheftza because it doen't belong to you. a person may not make asur what is not his.
7:32 PM
Yossie Schonkopf said...
also, there is no shvus in the mikdash, maybe this included.
7:35 PM
Avromi said...
the pnei yehoshua asks on the gem that there shouldnt be shvus bmikdash bichlal so why should the zrika be assur? shita says that here is different since he did an aveira.
7:39 PM
We also discussed previously as to what the prohibition would be for performing a zerikah on Shabbos here.
Daf Yomi - Yoma 46 - Zerika on Shabbos - What's Wrong?
It is clear from Rashi and Tosfos on this daf that a possuk is necessary to teach us that shechita and zerika (the sprinkling of the blood) is permitted on Shabbos. Reshash is bothered as to what the issur would be to perform zerikas hadam on Shabbos? The Rashba in Menochos (21) seems to indicate that the predicament would be that the azarah is considered reshus harabim. The Mishna in Tamid states that if a sheretz was found in the azarah on Shabbos, they would turn a pot over it. The Rosh comments that the difficulty was that the sheretz is deemed to be muktza. He quotes others who explain that it would be forbidden to transport it on Shabbos for the azarah is reshus harabim. He disagrees vehemently with this, for the Gemora Pesachim states that it is regarded as reshus harabim only in respect to the halachos of tumah, but not for Shabbos. It would seem obvious that the azarah is not reckoned as a reshus harabim for it is surrounded by walls and the doors are locked at night?
Why would zerikas hadam be considered a violation of Shabbos, that we need a passuk to say that it is acceptable?
Shlomo said...
Shalom,
Just noticed on the Midrashiya that they bring a Tiferes Yisroel that it might have to do with צביעה or they say their own logic (which im not quite sure what it is) that it might be זורה - winnowing, but it looks from them it is some type of separating the blodd on two sides of the mizbeach - not sure though.
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