Wednesday, March 28, 2007

Daf Yomi - Moed Katan 17 - Highlights

There was one young scholar who had a bad reputation (rumors were circulating that he was an adulterer). Rabbi Yehudah said: What shall we do regarding this case? Shall we excommunicate him? The rabbis need him (he was a teacher). Shall we not? The name of Heaven will be profaned. He asked Rabbah bar bar Chanah: Did you hear anything about such a case? He answered him: Rabbi Yochanan said: "It is written [Malachi 2:7]: The kohen's lips safeguards knowledge and people seek Torah from his mouth, for he is like an angel of Hashem. That means: If the teacher resembles an angel, Torah may be sought from his mouth, but not otherwise. Thereupon Rabbi Yehudah excommunicated him. Subsequently, Rabbi Yehudah was taken ill and the rabbis made him a sick-call, among whom was also that young scholar. When Rabbi Yehudah saw him, he laughed. He said to Rabbi Yehudah: Is it not enough that you excommunicated me, you still laugh at me? Rabbi Yehudah answered him: I do not laugh at you, but in the World to Come I will be proud to say that I was not biased even towards so great a man as you.

When Rabbi Yehudah died, the young scholar came to the Beis Medrash and asked to be absolved from the ban, and the rabbis answered him: There is not here a man equal in esteem to Rabbi Yehudah to absolve you. Go to Rabbi Yehudah Nesiah, and he may absolve you. He went to him. Rabbi Yehudah Nesiah said to Rabbi Ami: Go and examine his case, and if found favorable, absolve him. Rabbi Ami did so, and was about to absolve him when Rabbi Shmuel bar Nachmeini arose and said: Even when the maidservant of the house of Rebbi excommunicated someone, the sages respected it for three years, how much more so should we respect Yehudah our colleague. Rabbi Zeira said: How did it happen that this elderly man came today to the Beis Medrash after an absence of several years? It is evident that the young scholar should not to be absolved from the ban.

The scholar left weeping, and on the way he was stung by a bee and he died. His corpse was brought to the burial graves of the pious, and they did not accept it; he was then removed to those of the judges, and was accepted. Why was this? For he acted in accordance with Rabbi Ilai’s ruling cited in a braisa: If one cannot withstand the temptation, he shall go to a place where he is not known, and shall dress in black and wrap himself in black and do as he pleases, but shall not profane the name of Heaven openly.

The Gemora proceeds to relate the occurrence with the maidservant of the house of Rebbi. The maidservant of the house of Rebbi saw once one beating his grown-up son, and she said: Let that man be excommunicated, for he has transgressed the commandment [Vayikra 19:14]: You shall not put a stumbling block before the blind (the son might retaliate and transgress the prohibition against striking his father). (17a)

Rish Lakish was watching an orchard, and there came a certain man and ate some of the figs. Rish Lakish shouted to him not to do it, but he paid no attention to him. Rish Lakish then said: Let this man be excommunicated. The man answered him: On the contrary, let that man be excommunicated; for if I am responsible to pay the damages, am I then liable to be excommunicated? When Rish Lakish came to the Beis Medrash, he was told: His excommunication towards you is valid, but not yours. Rish Lakish asked: Is there a remedy? They told him: Go and ask his pardon. But I do not know where to find him, Rish Lakish replied. He was told: You have to go to the Nasi in order to be released, as we have learned in a braisa: One who was been excommunicated and he does not know by whom; he must go to a Nasi in order to be absolved. (17a)

When Mar Zutra the Pious was compelled to excommunicate a young scholar, he first excommunicated himself and then the young scholar. When he entered his residence, he first absolved himself and then the young scholar.

Rabbi Gidel said in the name of Rav: "A scholar may excommunicate himself and afterward absolve himself.

Rabbi Papa said: I may be rewarded since I have never excommunicated a young scholar. What would he do if a scholar was deserving of excommunication? He would do as they did in Eretz Yisroel; they administered lashes to him (they regarded lashes as a less severe form of punishment and were concerned for the honor of the scholar). (17a)

The Mishna had stated: A nazir and a metzora may take a haircut during Chol Hamoed. The Gemora cites a braisa: One who arrives from overseas, or he was freed from captivity, or he left prison may take a haircut during Chol Hamoed provided that he did not have time prior to the festival; a nazir and a metzora can take a haircut during Chol Hamoed even if he did have time prior to the festival since we do not want their korbanos to be delayed any longer.

The Gemora discusses a case where a mourner’s seventh day of mourning falls out on Shabbos, which was the day prior to the festival. One Tanna maintains that part of the day is like the entire day and the seventh day counts for the last day of mourning and the first day of the sheloshim (thirty days of mourning); since he cannot cut his hair on Shabbos, he may cut his hair during Chol Hamoed. Another Tanna disagrees because he holds that a part of the day is not like the entire day and therefore the sheloshim would not begin until Sunday; it emerges that he could not have cut his hair on the seventh day even if it was a weekday. Shabbos did not prevent him from cutting his hair and therefore he cannot cut his hair during Chol Hamoed. (17b)

18 comments:

Anonymous said...

Little Daf blurbs
Why would we think that a talmid Chacham not be able to take action if anyone can?
-Everyone else requires Beis Din he does not
-You would think it is disrespectfull for a Talmud chacham to take it in to his own hand here we know no he should
2)We alredy learnt that somone in Cherem can Teach So why is the question repeated?
-Thats good for older students but for younger students we dont want the bad influence
3)Rabbi Like Malach
-Just like no one has ever seen a Malach and no one questions it so should you approach the torah non questioning.
-Just like a Malach has only hashem intrest in mind so should your Rebbi
-It says about the Melachim Nossnim Reshus Zeh Lazeh
just like they are not Ballie Machlokos so to your Rebbi should not be a Baal Machlokos
-In Masechtas Meggilah we learnt about the Malach who came to Yeshoah With a sword in hand and Yeshouah asked is it because of bittul torah or Bittul Korbon he said Bittul Torah just like the Malach is only concerned about torah so should your Rebbi be.
-It does not say to learn torah so be Midayek EIZHU HACHAM HALOMED MAKOL ADAM!! to follow a Mehalach in learning you need a Malach to learn learn from anyone.

Anonymous said...

It says in Shulchan Auruch An enemy does not visit his enemy the sick man so why did he do it?
-They were not enemies he was just doing Khalacha
The Mahritz Chia says the reason it was so strange that Rav Yismael BAr NAchmani was ther was He was A rebbi od Aggadta ussaly not in the yeshiva of Halacha today if he was there DAvka for this Psak so it has to be we should not take off the Cherem its from Hashem

Avromi said...

I saw that Maharitz Chiyus - very geshmak - w/o a computer search program, he states that reb shmuel bar nachmeini is never mentioned in a halacha gemora - do you have 'blurbs' on daf 18? thanks

Anonymous said...

The Ri Mipano says that the shifcha who put the father in Cherem was a gilgul of the Shifcha shroah byam at "Oz Yoshir"
How old is it "lfnie iver"?
Three Pshatim 22-24 a bar mitzvah boy or the ramah says like today any child that will hit back like it says that when mosihach comes the chutzpah will grow.

Avromi said...

Is the Ri Mipano trying to explain how a shifcha could make a cheirem?

Anonymous said...

The Rishonim ask why does it say son and not Daughter?
-Daughter is ussaly married by thhis time
-Girls are calmer in Nature
-The gemurah says a father is Michuyav To teach his son An Umdanis (how to make a living) and torah the father might get upset teaching so this one specificly is mentioned

Anonymous said...

No its a Kabbalah Sefer he is gilgul of him and so on because throghout Shas she is considered an important Character for halachic implications,so i guess you can say that

Anonymous said...

I really need a spell checker!!! lol

Avromi said...

It's fine - can you email me if you have anything on the future dafim? i can write it up.
aneinu at sbcglobal dot net

thanks

ben said...

daf blurbs: go to place where no one knows you and do what heart wants. according to one pshat in rashi and according to Tosfos, it means he will be humbled. we can say that's the lashon libo chafeitz, that's what his heart really wants, like it says ulevavo yavin veshav verafa lo. interesting that rafa also means weakened, i.e. his yeitzer will be weakened.

Anonymous said...

Since you brought it up There are two Gersios one Says since he did not listen he was Nicshel in the Avierah one says he was

Anonymous said...

Ideas for tomorrow's post
-2 Pshatim in Sefer Ezra or Sefer Torah in the Azrah
-The Poskim Speak about a Shul that finds its Sefer Torah is Posul on Yom Tov fix it on Chal Hamoed or go to other Shul? other Shul wins(Surprised me)
-Writing Chiddushei Torah on Chal Hamoed
Ritva -Yes Davar Haved
Rashba-Not Davar Haved because it just needs extra Chazarah)
Mishna Berurah Poskins you can for 2 reasons: one even with Chazarah you still forget(don't I know it)In that time we can learn more (so it says)
-This one is simple Tefillin on Chal Hamoed
SHULCHAN ARUCH-No
Rama-Yes
-2 Ways to learn our Mishna
-Is Chal Hamoed an Ois
Bahag-is an Ois
Rivash-not an Ois
Avnie Nezer-If Yom Tov is an Ois so why do we say in Havdalah "Hamavdil Bein Kodesh Lchol"?He answers 2 types of Kedusha Inherently Kodesh this is Yom Tov,and the ether type for lack of an English equivalent a Kedusha that is Yoinik (FEEDS OFF?)
-Iggras Moshe Since in Eretz Yisroel the first People there where either GRA-NIKS Sephardim or Talmidie Baal-Shemtov when in Eretz Yisroel wear your Tefillin privately at home
-Mishna Berurah:One Shul should not have people with two Minhagim "Lo Sisgodidu"
Teshovas Mordichai Bannet:Not "Lo Sisgodidu"

Anonymous said...

More Ideas for tomorrow's Post's
-Writing with a shinu
-Tosfos wrong hand (shopping Chal Hamoed sign for credit card)
-(my favorite shinu) Typing is Preferable,Type up The shopping list
Debrtzin Rav says since "Bzman Hazeh" This is Regular Writing not a Shinu (see Ribiat:Hilchos Shabbos Footnote)
Machlokes: Rashi,Rambam:KdeiParnasasa
Rashi:Poor(needs the money has no food)
Rambam:Just Could Use Extra
-Avnei Nezer if I understand correctly Chiddush Atzum The reason He is Cholek on Rashi because writing of Tefilin requires Kavanah and if he needs the money for food he does not have Kavanah for the Mitzvah for his food he says the Tefillin He would write would be Posul!!!(hard to believe since we know it says the Parnasah that makes no money is sofrim so they should keep writing and then to say that .see how you understand it

Anonymous said...

You Know whats funny those are all for a later daf

Avromi said...

Thank you - will see what we have time to research - greatly appreciated

Anonymous said...

Here is for Today(with Daf Blurbs for [יח])
-The underlying Machlokes between RAV YOISE AND RAV YEHUDA ACCORDING TO RITVAH IS MACHLOKES OF a TRANSLATION OF POSUK
By a Yefas Toer the posek says "Vussyahu Es Tziponeha" Grow long nails she will be repulsive to you and you wont want to marry her this is Rav Yoise
-The klal of being Makil in Hilchos Avelim applies only to Tannaim and some push it to Amoroim not Achronim and it is not a Klal in Poskining Dinim today.
-Why did he visit Shmuel?to ask A Halacha Even though he was Avael
-When Avrhom Opened his mouth it was for good so how can we learn it out to here for bad he saved Yitchok? The Chsam Sofer answers to Avrham It was bad He was unable to do the Ratzon Hasahem in his mind because of what he said.
-This thing off not opening mouth to bad is a Mekor for our Minhag or din Today of children with parents not saying Kaddish(some even by a siyum by the Kaddish in the hadran)goes so far that by the Holucaust In teshuvas of the Divrie Yoel he was Misapek if they should say Kaddish If they were not A hundred Percent sure if the where dead Because of the Chshash of our Gemurah
-Shiur Mitzyonim Lhalcha has a Diyuk from our Gemurah that a women by the Mikvah should be less problematic by forgetting to cut her toenails Verse the hand nails
-Machlokos what Gustia is a Nail cutter Specifically or a Regular Scissor Lhalacha it effects what we can use.
-In Gemurah we learn 3 dinim from the story why not 4 we cant use a scissor? cant learn out because he was in Beis Medrash No scissors were available.
-Why does A fingernail cause Miscarriages? It is a kabalah because when a women see it she is reminded that in Gan Eden we had no clothes we had what is now our fingernails covering our body hence she Miscarries by being reminded of the Chet
-Halachic note Burial and flushing same status as with Biur chometz
-Why is a Person who Burns His nails A Chossid? Rav Menachem Mendel Schnerson ז"צל answered That really there are easier ways to dispose of it you are going "Lfnei Mishuras Hadin" For other People That is A Chossid.
-Nails on Chal Hamoed and Aveilus
Ramah is makpid not to cut nails On Chal Hamoed one exception All agree women in Mikvah is allowed.If she is avael not in first days but later it is suggested that someone else cut for her
-Pharaoh being short In recent archaeological Digs the Hieroglyphics say this explicitly Heard this from Rabbi Moshe Meir Weiss Pesach Shiur and he points out there death mask beards were also very long
-Our Gemurah with the person with one pair of clothing being allowed to do Laundry is Meokor for washing laundry of children because they are in the same category
-The people who cleaned their clothes in the Sea Should be a proof if the Rabbonim where against it why did they not say anything? No,because If it is a Drabonon and the people wont listen anyway you should not yell better for them to be Mistaken

Anonymous said...

-The Mishna cases why are they allowed on Chal Hamoed?
-Gittin to prevent Aggunahs Davar Haovid,or he is going on trip far away so he is giving her the get now as was custom in those times,so is it only in emergency situations or always some say that it is a Lo plug since there are situations that allow we always allow.
-A receipt is also a davar Haovid he wont pat without it cause he is afraid you will find the document later and collect again and he is leaving so we allow you to write it
-Pruzbal he is going to Midnas Hayam even thought it may be many months or even years before so we allow it
-the shtar of the Kitanah we allow her to do it right away to prevent her from growing two hairs and then she will not be able to do it
-Rambam says Engagement(for lack of better term) is a Mitzvah because it is first step in marriage.
-Why BAS Ploni ?
Girls father has Chiyuv To marry her off
-Maharsha since since when he is born she usually is not yet born usually she is younger.
Why does it say field to this person also announced? Lesson don't marry to money its already been decided.
-Why do we need 3 Posukim for Bashert,one from each part of Tanach? Three types of marriages all Bashert Tzadik to tzadekes Yitchok to his wife Tzadik to Rasha Shimshon to his wife and tzadekes to her husband all Bashert.
-Why did they hate moshe enough to warn their wives from being Miyached with him? When Arhon asked for gold by the Golden Calf they would not give by the Mishkan the gave and offered extra Bronze mirors for the Kiyar.

Anonymous said...

More Chal Hamoed Halochos from the daf (Rabbi Eli Mansour)
Chacham Ovadia Yosef rules in Chazon Ovadia (p. 193) that it is permissible on
Chol Ha'mo'ed to shower or bathe as one normally does, with hot water and soap.
One may similarly comb his hair as usual on Chol Ha'mo'ed, despite the
possibility that he will thereby detach some hairs. Chacham Ovadia also allows
(p. 194) mopping floors on Chol Ha'mo'ed. In accordance with the view of the
Shulchan Aruch (532), Chacham Ovadia permits nail cutting on Chol Ha'mo'ed, both
on the fingers and toes. It is also permissible to polish shoes on Chol
Ha'mo'ed (p. 195).